Talk:Director Kakuzawa
Not a Complete Monster In Manga I agree he is close very close to be exact but In the Manga it is shown that he that hie daughter was the only person he seemed to truely care for. It was shown that his daughter was insecure and loved her father very much so I seriously doubt it was to manipulate her easier when it was transparent on being a easy and willing to be manipulated if it made him happy. He truly believed he mad his daughter a Goddess and proud of her. Had he been seen verbally abusing her and or physically abusing her it would be another story but the Pet a Dog Moment with telling her that she wasn't stupid despite not having horns and that she only learned slower means no. The anime he might not fit due to not showing much.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:24, March 23, 2015 (UTC) Kakuzawa's devoid of actual warmth towards her save one line where he needs to get her to do something for him. He simply views her as his greatest achievment later and thinks he's created his 'goddess' And even if he does love her, she's a manga-only character so he definitely counts in the anime. (talk) 15:24, March 23, 2015 (UTC) If he didnt care for her then he wouldnt ask her to do it he would force it. Various sites agree he cared for her and its not too hard to see. Yes he is vile but not even half of the terrible things are seen in the anime.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:33, March 23, 2015 (UTC) The Elfen Lied Wiki acknowledges that there isn't definitive proof that he cares for her, They have a questionnaire on every article and the one for his article asks whether he genuinely cares for her, If it were confirmed they wouldn't do that. The only real evidence that he loves her is a lack of abuse, and that could just be to make her easier to manipulate. As for his anime incarnation, it's true that the anime leaves out a lot of the details but what's left, namely being responsible for the horrors of the facility, in addition to his plan to commit genocide, should be more than enough to meet the heinous standard.Lady Satsuki (talk) 15:14, April 21, 2015 (UTC) Even TV Tropes puts her as his one positive traite and und 'Even Evil Has Loved Ones". Genocide makes him beyond the Moral Event Horizon but not automatically a Complete Monster as he needed to be shown doing more.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:28, April 21, 2015 (UTC) As I said, he's also responsible for the facility, surely that counts as heinous enough, I personally think Director Kakuzawa (Anime) and Director Kakuzawa (Manga) should be made into separate pages.Lady Satsuki (talk) 15:05, April 24, 2015 (UTC) They are possible for two sperate pages but again the anime shows so little of him and his operations. Yes he plans to wip out humanity but all we see is him shoot a female have her fixe3d up after she agreed to help him. The henious standars are high with Lucy being a mass murderer seen killing one small girl for trying to save her brother. I dont fell he is henious enough in the anime. If he was shown doing even half what the manga does then yes but they don't. The manga only isn't because of his interations with his daughter.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:13, April 24, 2015 (UTC) Kakuzawa doesn't do much himself in the anime but he's still responsible for the horrific experiments that take place at the facility. Compare with Sauron, he doesn't do much but his forces do. Besides Tomoo's listed as a CM and he does even less. Tomoo's a horrible little brat no question but which is worse, Puppy-killing or Genocide? Lady Satsuki (talk) 15:25, May 1, 2015 (UTC) Yes horrible but Sauron had no power without his ring and could only order his atrocites during Lord of the Rings while Kakuzawa can yet only orders it and is only shown shooting one woman then allowing her to be saved after she agreed to help. Tomoo didnt have the resources to cause as much pain and suffering has Kakuzawa did and that puppy killing was more then simply killing a dog. Tomoo knew very well it was the only thing that cared for Lucy at that time and vice versa yet decided to force her to watch helplessly has he destroyed her world just for laughs. Genocide is worse but alone isnt enough to make a CM as I have staed before but Tomoo cossed the MEH far worse than most characters of the anime as he tried to destroy a females mind for no real reason and shown enjoying every vile act he did on-screen while Kakuzawa does next to nothing on-screen.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:41, May 1, 2015 (UTC) As I pointed out Kakuzawa doesn't have much screen time in the anime but his influence can be felt throughout the series, for example having Mariko subjected to experiments that are described as worse than torture, and ordering Kurama to kill her in cold blood, and allowing that woman to be saved doesn't say much since she'd agreed to help him. Lady Satsuki (talk) 14:25, May 5, 2015 (UTC) Depite being a vicious and cruel man and a major villain in the plot tehy decided not to show him enough nor again do much. I never said he spared her as a kindensss actually I even said it was because she was willing to serve his cause. His influence is felt but again not enough to warrent CM status especially since in comparrison to his Manga counter part mild. Lucy is a Mass Murderer and mutilator on-screen making the heinous standard extremely hard to match and again Genocide isnt enough. The major reaso Tomoo counts is despite his extremely limited re-sources he made Lucy become what we see in the present.Jester of chaos (talk) 13:39, May 5, 2015 (UTC) Technically the anime counts as a separate continuity from the manga, so Anime Kakuzawa doesn't have to compete with his Manga counterpart, and the experiments that take place in the facility are at least as bad as anything Lucy does. Lady Satsuki (talk) 15:07, May 5, 2015 (UTC) Even when counting it a different continutity it is a very dark setting and MOST of the experiments aren't shown and while Lucy has redeeming features and obtains redemption if I recall correctly, she is shown killing many innocent people including at least one innocent child.Yes the facility kills infants (I think its been a while) but as much as I hate him he fails to do much personally and the heinous standards are high and he fails to go past Lucy by much if any. Is he irredeemable? A most definitely but not quite a Complete Monster.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:18, May 5, 2015 (UTC) The rules state offscreen villainy can still count if the plot shows the effects on the character's victims, and the anime makes no attempt to gloss over how horrible the facility is. As for not doing much himself, that's one of the few times TV Tropes is lenient about CM criteria, ordering atrocities isn't really any less heinous than if the character does them personally, plus while shooting that woman might not be much in and of itself it establishes that he doesn't have a problem with killing people personally. You mentioned that it's been a while since you saw the Anime, well I got it on DVD and watched the whole series this week and I feel very strongly that he counts as a CM in the Anime. Lady Satsuki (talk) 15:07, May 8, 2015 (UTC) The only thing I am a little hazy about is the infants. Again the facility is horrible but again that isn't enough and yes it's simply part of his genocide though it's more Omnicidal attempts. Killing and willingness to kill in this show isn't that heinous by this set standards. Even TVTropes doesn't list the anime version a CM. Is he a irredeemable man who derves death or worse? Of course but not quite enough to break into CM territory especially since one character kills women, children or just about anyone. Yes said character has redeeming features but it makes it harder for anyone to be a CM. It's obvious I can't change your mind or the other way around as we are set in our views.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:23, May 8, 2015 (UTC) Another point I'd like to make about Manga Kakuzawa is if I'm not mistaken the scene where he tells his daughter is a flashback, is there any definitive proof he still loves her in the present day?Lady Satsuki (talk) 16:07, July 31, 2015 (UTC) Not sure if it was a flashback but he seemed conflicted on whether transforming her was worth it, still praised her as a Goddess and the fact she was apparently still human like and the rest was a protective shell which can be seen as a desire to keep her safe. There is no indication he didn't still love her as he still seemed to show compassion towards her from what I recall and the sole person he ever gave "Pet the Dog" moments to.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:42, July 31, 2015 (UTC) I doubt anyone can hope to settle this sort of debate, but let me offer a vote in favor of Complete Monster. I've spent a ridiculous amount of time summarizing EL in both forms and on every level you can name, so I have that on my side. I know there's pushback against declaring every last villian from Ted Baxter on down as a CM, and I get why. But here's a thought about reversing the burden of proof. In short, is the story or character element that seemingly nudges a nasty villain away from CM status itself intentionally free of that villain's dark works? By this, I don't mean something they fought or meant to protect that got hurt or corrupted anyway or unwittingly. Did their own designs drag in or endanger with their full knowledge that thing which otherwise keeps them from being a CM? If this is a notion, then Director Kakuzawa's love for Anna cannot keep him from that line. He experimented on her, and at least made her think she'd become a monster. He took her into battle with Lucy, her power aside, never a good parenting choice. He used her to calculate the means and methods of murdering billions. Even the best and perhaps only good thing about DK cannot be separated from his vile ambitions, and in fact was folded into them, Anna's desire to serve aside. I think that, if even that thing that draws them back from the brink is tainted or at knowing risk due to their otherwise purely bad nature, then CM it is. JMHO. Gojirob (talk) 05:04, August 3, 2015 (UTC) I will say this: You gave excellent reasons and I also doubt anyone has a chance at settling this debate. I do agree that his love for the daughter is by no means distracted or down played his action. I also agree he is a terrible parent but I don't think he wanted his daughter to see herself as a monster but a Goddess but thats just because of his own delusions of being a God and view on what she had become. Hell to be honest I think you have given the best argument on this whole thing and I seriously doubt mine will be as good I just want to explain my reasoning and yes I will try to respectfully counter those who disagree on views on stuff like this but thats the fun in debating. I hadn't known he had Anna fight Lucy but after looking up on it I have been told he tries to use Lucy's half brother to sway her to his side and thus it would spare Anna. I know the attempt failed to have her join. I am by no means an expert on Elfen Lied or Complete Monster but I do remember I was told they must not care for anyone in order to truly count and he did care for his daughter and apparently gave her more then one "Pet the Dog" type moments. I do find him a irredeemable character and a monster but not a'' complete'' one I find him more of a 98 or 99 % monster then the 100 % percent that is needed.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:41, August 4, 2015 (UTC) Another point to bear in mind is he tries to return her to human form. That might sound like further evidence that he loves her, but don't forget that he's planning to wipe out all humanity and seeing how she's back to her human form that would more than likely include her, especially considering he wants to be seen as the one true god in the new world he plans to create so it would be in his best interest to get rid of any other potential gods.Lady Satsuki (talk) 14:41, August 4, 2015 (UTC) Based on his previous actions towards her I doubt he would try to kill her and the other'' body'' was a protective but immobile shell. He would still be at least in his eyes be the one true God as the other god is the child which in mythology and religions still make them the true God.Jester of chaos (talk) 14:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC) Wouldn't removing the shell also romove her only protection from the genocide he was planning to carry out? And you said that he'd still be the one true god in his eyes, but some of the population of the new world might not see things the same way so it would still benefit his plan to get rid of her.Lady Satsuki (talk) 14:59, August 4, 2015 (UTC) The shell mostly came off from what I hear after the battle with Lucy. I think he was so caught up in his own ego he thought he'd be seen as the true God no matter what and may not of taken it into consideration. That said he since he was planning to be seen like the Christian God he either might use the original bible or even write his own so some will believe he was said God in the future and not pass it off as evolution or something similar.Jester of chaos (talk) 15:12, August 4, 2015 (UTC) His treatment of Anna doesn't strike me as the actions of a loving father, and people knew she was his daughter wouldn't they see her as a similar figure to Jesus? With that said it would be in his best interest to get rid of her if he wanted to be regarded as the one true god. .Empress Mitsuru (talk) 16:12, October 26, 2015 (UTC) The child thing is the only time I've felt he genuinely not completely monstrous and sole reason it seems he fails otherwise he is worse then anyone else of the series except maybe the Unknown man. Yes they might see her as a Jesus like being but as far as he was considered they would see him as the Supreme God of the world. It might of made some sense to kill her but he never really gives hints towards that was his plan and seemed to think "I will be seen as a God!" To the point he might of actually over looked that. Jester of chaos (talk) 17:12, October 26, 2015 (UTC) I'm going to move this one past a stub. I wrote his article on the EL Wiki, so I should be able to differentiate it. Gojirob (talk) 14:53, March 31, 2016 (UTC) Suggest a semi-lock I've completed the article as far as I'm concerned. I might suggest locking it against unregistered or new users, due to how many have only seen the anime, and the prior problems. Gojirob (talk) 13:40, May 30, 2016 (UTC)